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He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

I read Bruce Eckel's books and blogs. I usually agree with what he says. So naturally I read Bruce's latest blog article Hybridizing Java seriously.

What I didn't realize was that Bruce was also working as a spokesman for Adobe in its Flex 2 advertising campaign until I spotted the Flash advertisement on some technology website. I didn't remember which site I spotted the ad on, however I did save a link to the actual swf file.

I don't know how many people have read the article without seeing the ad, or how many people have seen the ad without reading the article. For me, reading the article first without any knowledge of his role in the ad campaign, and then seeing the ad popping up, gave me somewhat of a surprise. And, maybe I'm being a little bit of oversensitive, it works to completely negate whatever impact Bruce's article had on me. For example, after reading the article, especially the following assessment of Flex:

Bruce Eckel: Of course, if my dream is to be able to learn a single GUI system in depth, is Flex the right tool, since it was originally designed for web RIAs?

A Flex UI can initiate communication with its server, or any other server it chooses. A server cannot initiate communication with a Flex UI, which makes sense because of security (it would be effectively the same as having an open port on your machine).

However, a Flex UI is not limited to communicating with a server. It can also communicate with a local application. Thus, you can create an application in any language you prefer, even a dynamic language like Python or Ruby, and use Flex to build a beautiful UI.

Adobe is developing a new tool called Apollo, a cross-OS runtime that allows you to use Flex to create desktop RIAs. This means that your Flex skills can be further employed for creating smooth desktop applications, but it also means that you can more easily build applications that will work on both web and desktop (I’ve seen expensive and difficult-to-use tools that allow other languages to do this).

I went as far as to have registered with Adobe's website and downloaded the Flex 2 SDK. I was about to give it a whirl this weekend to see if I like it. Then I saw the ad, and my mind went, "Wait a minute! If Bruce is doing a celebrity product endorsement gig for Adobe Flex 2, how objective could his assessment be? Especially since he did not disclose his connection with Adobe in the article."

They almost had me.

(Since I haven't played with Flex 2 yet, I don't know enough about it to say whether it's good or bad. But judging from the amount of Flash content on the web, I'd imagine it to be pretty good. Bruce's assessment may still be accurate. His criticism of Java is certainly on the mark. I wish the Java community take Bruce's criticism as motivation to improve the platform.)

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Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

Hi,

I understand your concerns.  Bruce has been working with Flex for a long time, and wrote that article entirely independent of being involved with us in a communications campaign.  We asked him to work with us because he loved Flex, not the other way around.  But I understand you concern about how it may be perceived.  I assure you Bruce writes what we writes without Adobe imposing our ideas on him.  Our work with him on eduation and communications is based on his ideas, not something we paid him to believe.

Regards,
David  
Adobe

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

David,

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm mainly talking about my perception here (and I believe I'm not alone in having this perception). I still view the ad compaign as a PR misstep. Now I'll be waiting for the next unaffiliated, independent evaluation of Flex 2.

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

His endorsement of Flex without full disclosure is reprehensible! I always respected his opinion because I knew he was fair, balananced and unbiased. His relationship with Adobe undermines all that! WHAT A JOKE!

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

Nothing to think.. tomorrow some other say He's Been Thinking In Flex, Now He's Thinking In Silverlight OR He's Been Thinking In Flex, Now He's Thinking In JavaFX

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

Hasn't he long left Java and was thinking in Ruby and Python in between? So should't the ad say "I've been thinking in Ruby, now I've been thinking in Flex". He trashed Java for Ruby, so trashing Java again seems kind of lame. And isn't he always just thinking about his next book, the time when every other enviroment except the one described in the book is trash?

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

Your concern and attention to detail is respected and applauded. Personally I didn't notice the ad consciously. You should question anyone's evaluation of a new technology, regardless of who they're speaking for or doing work for. You can dodge Flex2 if you like. Ultimately the technology choices you make will land at your doorstep, not Bruce's or mine. If you are building RIAs then personally I consider it worth evaluating and learning, and I'm a long-time Swing and Eclipse RIA developer. I'm not dumping anything for Flex, but I am adding Flex to my repetoire.

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

Sure Bruce can't be objective about his post... we all know how corporations like adobe are about brand and sure this has to influece Bruce's post.

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

First, read the article more carefully.  He says:

(Full disclosure: I’m in the process of working out a consulting contract with Adobe, to help them teach people about Flex. But long before this, I became convinced that Flash, and Flex in particular, was the best solution for the user-interface problem, and I began writing this article long before Adobe expressed interest in my assistance).

If you cannot believe him in that, why look at all at anything he writes (your loss).

Second, consider the points he is making.  I do Java FT and love it, including Swing. But like Bruce says, we think nothing of using a specialized database like MySQL with Java, why not use a specialized -- and a technically very impressive -- tool for web development with Java?

 

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

I'm sorry, but I can't share your concerns. For me it's very interesting to observe that someone with such a deep experience in the Java field skips ideas like AJAX, JSF or even Eclipse RCP. My own experience tells me that his critics is reliable. I'm very happy about Adobe open Flex to the Java community. At the moment Flash as a VM is the first platform that allows to create me true desktop user experiences for the Web browser like I produced with e.g. Delphi a decade ago. If the Apollo project  will allow to have this user experience also for standard desktop applications in one programming model, a lot of developers will be very happy. We didn't get this with Java (you remember the Java Applet disaster). My first steps with Flex are pretty fast. I started this week with it. If you've experiences in JavaScript and XML you only have to study the packaging concept. As the Flex Builder is a little bit expensive for private use I gave www.flashdevelop.org a try. The configuration for Flex has some tweaks at the moment, but the guys are working on it. Would have been nice though they had chosen Eclipse as base.

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

Just a quick reply to anonymous from Feb 18th. I think your confusing Bruce Eckle with Bruce Tate. Bruce Eckle has never trashed Java. Bruce Tate has made a career out of trashing Java and selling tons of books on the next  great technology (whatever that is?).  I trust Bruce Eckle, I would never trust Bruce Tate!

Re: He's Been Thinking In Java, Now He's Thinking In Flex

Adobe Flex is exactly that, Adobe Flex. The reason no one is using it and Adobe has to fund its own underhanded marketing effort to popularize it is that Adobe Flex is a proprietary standard that Adobe controls through Adobe's usual draconian licensing. And we all know, from hard experience, that there is nothing good to be gained in supporting a closed-source company's proprietary platforms. Well, unless you have a con-$ulting contract with Adobe.

On the Hybridizing Java blog thread, I had to post a number of times to get Bruce Eckel to disclose that Adobe was paying him. The article was so full of hyperbole and gross generalizations that it was obviously a paid for piece. Bruce used to be and is usually a stand-up guy, but Adobe must have tried to control disclosure for a stronger 'viral marketing' effect. It was all shady, slimy, and 'lie through omission' -- i.e. typical Adobe. You can go back and check the original blog article and you will find there was no disclosure. Once you see for yourself there was no disclosure originally, Adobe's weasel words are easy to sort out.

As I stated in one of my posts on Bruce's blog, there is way too much risk involved for independent software vendors to use Flex. Just like PDF, Adobe can choose to sue you whenever they want if you use their technology in a way they don't like. All the time Adobe says PDF is an 'open standard'. What Adobe means is 'open to lawsuit' and that is about it. So ISVs should think twice, make that three times, before spending one minute looking at Adobe's proprietary web apps platform, aka Flex. Not only is there better technology out there, but most of it is open source based on real open standards, i.e. smart choices for smart companies. Something to think about if you are working for a reason other than enriching Adobe...


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