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WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

When was the last time we thinked?

Had an interesting conversation at the stuff meeting this past last Wednesday, i.e., 3 days ago:

Me: Hi, I started to read your blog.

Nathan: I've noticed. I did spend some time tweaking it. It was fun.

Me: It's quite polished.

Brad: Who's hosting it?

Nathan: I'm hosting it myself.

Brad: What software do you use?

Nathan: WordPress.

Me: Isn't that written in PHP?

Nathan: Yes. And it's quite an easy language.

Me: Didn't they put PHP code right there in the HTML pages?

Nathan: They do.

Me: Didn't we say that's bad?

Nathan: Apparently they are doing alright. Lots of people are using WordPress.

Me: And look at us. We tried so hard to separate our stuff into layers and all that and still can't manage the complexity. We have so many frameworks yet not anything as popular as WordPress.

Nathan: Not everyone needs the scalability. How many hits can I get?

Brad: You are hosting your blog in Java, right.

Me: Yes. I use Pebble with Tomcat. I like it a lot. A well designed tag library is a joy to use.

But why is this? Why do people (at least some people) flock to something like PHP, which we Java people know is "bad" (or at least were told is bad)?

Could it be because that Java, although good, is too hard?

Could it be because Java is not available out of the box? (If you want to do ASP.NET, you get a Windows server. If you want to do PHP, you get a Linux server. If you want to do Java, you get a what?)

Could it be because the Java implementations on different platforms are incompatible? (What's the latest version of Java on Mac OS X? on Solaris 7? 8? 9? 10? on Free BSD? On AIX? HP-UX? Tru64)

Could it be because the Java stuff is too hard to set up right for end-users? True that I can setup Pebble in five minutes, but that's assuming I have a working Tomcat environment. And that is in itself a non-trivial task.

Could it be because what we have been told this past ten years were wrong. That PHP is really superior to Java?

Could it be because contrary to what we believed and what we've been told by our bosses, we aren't that bright, and couldn't see something that is so plain to the PHP product vendors and users. Doesn't that Joel on Software guy have a product that's ASP on Windows and PHP on UNIX? I wonder why he did not use Java?

Fooled us, those @#$%s!



Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

No the answer is much simpler. Java hosting still s sucks. Apache 2.1 and maybe MVM will change that. And yes PHP sucks big time, the language is so ugly, i know it's getting better, but still; I can't stand programming in PHP.

Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

It could be worse, you could have tried to do it in C++.

Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

PHP hosting is everywhere. While Java hosting is still damn expensive. The cheapest I could find is KGB Internet. The free ones are crap. And no matter what people say, Java is still not fast enough for 'normal' people (non-enterprise companies with huge and expensive toys). Weiqi, when I load your web site, there's still about 1-2 seconds loading time. I guarantee if you migrate your entries to WordPress, you don't even have the chance to blink and your page is already loaded. It happened to me when I migrated from Pebble to WordPress (had about 800 blog entries). PHP is easier to learn. Java community is a bunch of elitist prick, not everyone wants to be part of shit like that. Design-guy: right, I put my beautiful design template here Elite-java-coder: damn it man, you shouldn't put an ugly code like that Design-guy: wtf? it works it has beautiful look and feel Elite-java-coder: go away. don't polute my beautiful code. I don't need you poluting my elite blog software. Face it. Normal people can tweak WordPress theme easily. They can do so without being confused with where to put logic, where to put user interface code, where to put this that blablablabla. Look at the admin features, compare between WordPress and Java based blogging software. Compare the installation process of those software. WordPress wins, hands down. The Java community needs to stop focusing on the clean, extendible, full-o-designpattern, mvc, etc etc. Pay more attention on what the user wants, features and functionalities. Java community, you might end up with a blog software with the best architecture. But who wants to use it? How many people will actually want to extend the elegant architecture?

Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

In terms of language expressive power, Java and PHP are at about the same level.
In terms of dynamism, PHP is actually better than Java. The moment you change your page or module code, it taks effect immediately. Thus PHP favors incremental development, no need for an IDE, no separate compile step.
Although I understand the point of having .war or .ear for deployment, do you find yourself using exploded war directory more at development time? That's exactly because it's more fluid and easier to change. The fluidness is a typical characteristic of dynamic language, and it happens to be in PHP's gene.
Java web apps of course only run on JVM. And JVM does not scale down to small (embedded) systems as well as other runtime environment.
And another problem of java web apps development is that too many small languages are involved. Remember that's in addition to HTML and the main programming language. In the case of PHP, it's at least two languages mixing, but also at most two.

Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

Lots of tools can do 90% of the Job and gain great popularity with a seemingly easy learning curve or through grass roots popularity (Ruby for example).

For a lot of people 90% is fantastic. When I first used Micro$oft Visual Studio's UI designer tool (in the late 90's) I almost fell out of my chair when the tool had absolutely no concept of a layout manager (!). You set the size of the dialog, pasted the UI components where you wanted them and were done. Then I thought about it.. I had met very few users who would think to resize a window. Until the current age of dynamic content almost no one (outside of programmer geeks like me) resized windows! This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Java is bloated beyond comprehension. PHP is simple. Spin back to 1990. VAX/VMS has everything meticulously documented and tested. Unix is made up of a small set of simple tools. Which one is still around 15 years later. Hmm...

I'm not losing any sleep over this whole PHP thing. 15 years from now I will be too busy trying to figure out how to store my 400Gb rt.jar file (Java 10 release 1.7_21 which, of course, includes a fully functional air traffic control, and accounts receivable API) on my new pen drive..

Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

My goal when I started blogging was to learn some new technologies and broaden my mind. PHP has been good for making quick changes and trying new things but it does make messy pages at times. I think it works well for the community of wordpress bloggers because it lets the non-developers customize their ‘look’. They are not coders and have a much greater focus on getting the site up and looking good quickly. Wordpress has done a good job of hiding all the core app PHP code but exposing methods and hooks for the average user to make enhancements. I think the majority of users have little traffic so they don’t need to scale to large numbers but they do value a short load time. Over all I find wordpress to be rather snappy.

Does anyone know of a blogging package based on Tapestry? By using the HTML templates and CSS the users could customize all day long and still have something that could be maintained.

Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

"Could it be because that Java, although good, is too hard?" No. PHP is harder. Java has better documentation and is more object oriented, and hence much easier. "Could it be because Java is not available out of the box?" Neither is PHP. Actually, I find Tomcat easier to get running. I just install mysql, java, and tomcat, then add the mysql connector jar to my java_home/lib/ext folder, and I am able to connect. With PHP, I install mysql, apache, and php. Then I have the hardest time getting it to connect to mysql. Turns out you have to install a mysql extention, so I start over and do that. Then it still doesn't work. After nearly wanting to commit suicide, I learn that I have to set c:\php\ext in my Path environment variable for the mysql extension to work, and that requires a restart. Then after finally getting mysql to work with PHP, I can't just go to http://localhost/blog because it gives a directory listing rather than going to my index.php so I have to go manually add Options -Indexes to my apache config file. What a hastle! Tomcat is just click installer, choose javahome directory, and go!

Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

"If you want to do ASP.NET, you get a Windows server. If you want to do PHP, you get a Linux server. If you want to do Java, you get a what?" Doesn't Fedora come with Tomcat installed? or at least it's one of the possible options in the setup, I think. I believe I've done it before.

Re: WordPress, PHP, Anti-Intuitive Reality, ...

One last comment. "If I want to setup a blog and I'm not a Java programmer, there is not way that I can setup Pebble." HUH? I am a Java programmer, BUT, BUT I say, I came home from work today to my PC that did NOT have Tomcat on it (although it did already have Java on it) and I simply clicked on the Tomcat installer exe, pressed next a bunch of times, then copied the pebble.war into my webapps folder like the readme.txt from pebble said to do, restarted the server (right clicked the little thing in the taskbar on the right bottom of the screen) then poof, pebble was magically installed. Took no java knowledge whatsoever.

Why is it hard to find a place to host Java based web applications?

I love Java. Lots. It's the neatest programming language I've used over the past 30 years, bar none. However ... You'll notice this web site is based on drupal. If I love Java so much, why don't I use a Java equivalent? And, as noted on these two blog

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